3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Spine variation with carbon shafts  (Read 4949 times)

Offline bigbadjon

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2015, 10:49:00 PM »
I'm guessing giff is so good it doesn't matter what he does with his arrows. For the rest of us matching you spine will instantly shrink your groups. Arrows of identical static spine on the jig will have identical dynamic spine when shot.
Hoyt Tiburon 55#@28 64in
A&H ACS CX 61#@28in 68in (rip 8/3/14)

Offline bigbadjon

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2015, 10:31:00 PM »
For guys like giff who think the difference is miniscule, I have measured as much as a 11# difference in spine on a quarter turn of a carbon shaft. This will instantly shrink your groups people.
Hoyt Tiburon 55#@28 64in
A&H ACS CX 61#@28in 68in (rip 8/3/14)

Offline bigbadjon

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2015, 10:41:00 PM »
For guys like giff who think this is a waste of time, I have measured as much as 11# of difference in a quarter turn of a carbon shaft. Shooting arrows like that make an archer look worse than he may be. I am not blowing smoke, this will instantly shrink your groups when every arrow flies the same. If you don't have a spine tester sell one of your bows and buy one.
Hoyt Tiburon 55#@28 64in
A&H ACS CX 61#@28in 68in (rip 8/3/14)

Offline Morning Star

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 773
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2015, 10:06:00 PM »
Carbon Express Maximas are the only carbon I can find that are advertised with a tight (.0025) spine variation.  Below is a link to a similar discussion I started a while back.


 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=138019;p=1
Iowa Bowhunters Association - Your voice in Iowa's bowhunting and deer hunting issues!

Offline giff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 266
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2015, 01:26:00 AM »
Using a spine tester is not necessary. Just shoot your arrows. If one doesn't group with the rest of them, twist the nock. If that doesn't fix it, throw it out. If you're shooting less than 50 yards or so, you probably won't notice anything.

BTW, I've never had to throw one out, and only had to rotate nocks twice in 6 years.

Offline giff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 266
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2015, 01:30:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bigbadjon:
 I have measured as much as 11# of difference in a quarter turn of a carbon shaft.
That is not a problem with carbon arrows in general, it is just poor quality control. If I remember correctly from the first page, that was a CX, right? I've never had any problems with Easton.  Made In America. That's all I shoot.

Offline MR BILL SHORTY

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 896
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2015, 01:50:00 AM »
Using a spine tester is not necessary. Just shoot your arrows. If one doesnt group with the rest of them, twist the nock. If that doesnt fix it, throw it out. If you're shooting less than 50 yards or so, you probably won't notice anything.    :laughing:

Offline giff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 266
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2015, 01:58:00 AM »
Why is that so funny? There is no reason to go into a shooting session believing that your arrows are not consistent. Just shoot them. Don't fix what isn't broken. If one of them won't group, that's the time to start working on it.

Like I said before, they act completely different coming out of a bow than they do laying on a table.

Offline Kevin Dill

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1471
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2015, 07:51:00 AM »
The problem with dynamic spine is that it's almost impossible to measure and compare amongst shaft types. Dynamic spine is measurement of deflection via pressure (force) applied in line with the shaft.

Static spine is measurement of deflection via pressure (weight) applied at a 90 degree angle to the shaft.

I don't believe I've ever seen a standardized system for determining dynamic spine. I would tend to agree that...all things about the shot being equal...dynamic spine should match up well in arrows that have a closely matched static spine. Under actual dynamic stress (at the shot) I suspect that different carbon shafts behave differently, and some may have distinct advantages for the hunter.

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2507
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2015, 11:23:00 AM »
In my opinion, if you see a lot of deflection difference from shaft to shaft, or even by rotating individual shafts, you have a massive quality control issue.

About 15 years ago I got a dozen carbon shafts and couldn’t get them to tune consistently. When I finally put them on a spine tester what I found was that my dozen shafts were mislabeled. Half of them were the next spine group up. That was the last time I bought shafts from that manufacturer.

A few years later a buddy of mine bought three dozen high end carbon shafts from a manufacturer/retailer that hyped them up as the be-all end-all for traditional archery. He had huge tuning issues, so we weighed and spined each of his shafts. As I recall there was over a hundred grains of weight difference and .150 spread in deflection (about 17#). After quite a few conversations with the retailer and some persuasion from his credit card company, my friend eventually got his money back.

That being said, for the past 14 years my hunting arrows have been almost exclusively Beman ICS. Every time I get a dozen I check them for both spine and weight. I couldn’t begin to tell how many dozens I’ve bought over the years—at least ten—and I’ve never seen the amount of variation some folks have posted about here. I can pick up any two I have, no matter if I bought them last year or 14 years ago, and they will weigh and spine the same.

For target archery my daughter and I have been shooting Victory VAPs and VX23s for the past couple years. I’ve never seen any weight or spine issues with them either. As a matter of fact, they are even tighter in tolerance than my Bemans, and that’s saying a lot.

Last night, just for grins, I took two dozen Victory VX23s (my daughter’s and mine) and checked them on my spine tester, rotating them each ¼ turn at a time. Out of those 48 measurements the high and low were only separated by .015” of deflection, or less than 2# of spine. I’ll take that consistency any day.

Offline Morning Star

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 773
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2015, 12:19:00 PM »
Good info fellas, thank you. I've read similar comments about the Victory line.  I picked up some CE Heritage shafts, as I've heard that CE has good quality control as well.  They have proven to bareshaft easily, consistent flight, and group very well for me..  I don't own a spine tester to give you guys numbers, but suspect they are tight. They tuned as easy as my alums do.
Iowa Bowhunters Association - Your voice in Iowa's bowhunting and deer hunting issues!

  • Guest
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2015, 03:12:00 PM »
Well, I spine tested 42 brand new Gold Tip XT Hunter 55/75 black shafts this morning. These are the more expensive .003 straightness shafts and are marked .400 on the factory label. As you can see from the following, I have still to yet find a single .400 spine arrow at all!

I came out with the following:

1  between .310 and .319
1  between .320 and .329
3  between .340 and .349
26 between .350 and .369 (I did not start counting until way into it when I got the first wacky one in the .310-.319 range)
11 between .370 and .379

If I had not spine tested these shafts, I know I would have been scratching my head trying to figure out what was wrong with that .310 arrow every time I shot it!

Bisch

Offline tzolk

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 716
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2015, 03:52:00 PM »
Bisch,
Is that full length or cut?
64" Toelke SSLR
64” Toelke Whip SL
68” Toelke Super D
Great Northern Quivers only!

All the best!
Todd Z

Offline Chuck from Texas

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2015, 03:58:00 PM »
I never used carbons, I wonder how consistent aluminums are?

Offline wtpops

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2015, 04:14:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chuck from Texas:
I never used carbons, I wonder how consistent aluminums are?
About as consistent as you can get, even from batch to batch, you can by 2 dozen and 1 year later by 2 more and they will match. This is what i have found anyway.
TGMM Family of the Bow
"OVERTHINKING" The art of creating problems that weren't even there!

Offline LB_hntr

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1153
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2015, 09:44:00 PM »
Dang it!!!
This thread is gonna make me buy a spine tester! Now I just gotta know.
Does a spine tester work on arrows already cut and fletched at 27" or can I only use it for future shafts?

  • Guest
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2015, 10:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tzolk:
Bisch,
Is that full length or cut?
I spine test mine all full length. I only cut off 3/8" off of full length for my tune. I spine test them as I get them and put them in groups of .010" deflection, and then cut and make up a dz when needed out of the same group.

I have been shooting Gold Tips for a looooooooong time and have got the "recipe" figured out for them. Before I started using the spine tester I would have an occasional flyer that I had no reason why it was messed up. Most of the time I would just trash that arrow and go on. Now that I am always shooting like arrows, I almost never have any flyers.

I am also sorely disappointed in GT's quality control, as I get one or two of the waaaaaaaaay off shafts in every couple dz I test. And also, the fact that I still have such a wide range of usable arrows. To me, nearly$100/dz shafts should  have tighter tolerance than what these do! I can shoot the .350's, the .360's, or the .370's with no noticeable difference in flight or penetration on animals. The stiffer ones do show a bit stiff when paper tuning, but because I have noticed no difference in my accuracy or in performance while hunting, I do not worry about it. I do wish they were more consistent though!

Bisch

Online Orion

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8261
  • Contributing Member
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2015, 11:13:00 PM »
LB: A spine tester will work on made up arrows.  The results may be off just a little, but will help you identify any fliers.  Traditionally, spine was measured by measuring the deflection when a 2# weight is hung on the shaft suspended between two posts 26 inches apart.  The point and nock/fletches, represent a little weight on either end of the arrow, will affect the reading a little, but so little as to be of no practical significance.  

For some reason, I believe it was Easton that began testing shafts with a 1.94# weight with the posts spread 28 inches apart.  That became the standard used by most manufacturers of aluminum and carbon arrows. It does not give the same results as the previous  method.

Of course, each method gives consistent results for that method, but the two are not comparable with each other. For example, a 50# spine using the 2# method yields a deflection of .52 inches.  That same 50# gives a deflection of .61 using the 1.94# method, according to a conversion chart prepared by RangersArchery.com. When talking/comparing spine, it's important to know what measurement was used.

The most accurate testers give you the deflection in inches, hundredths of an inch actually.  Some display the result in poundage of spine, usually not quite as precise.

Offline tzolk

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 716
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2015, 11:19:00 PM »
Unlike LB hntr, this thread is making me NOT want to get a spine tester ha ha !!! Knowing myself, I'll obsess over any differences I find. Best to not know and just go by how they group. Since I ditched the Gold Tips and went to FMJs and Axis Trads, the unknown looks positive.
64" Toelke SSLR
64” Toelke Whip SL
68” Toelke Super D
Great Northern Quivers only!

All the best!
Todd Z

  • Guest
Re: Spine variation with carbon shafts
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2015, 11:33:00 PM »
My spine tester is made by RAM Products. It is on 28" center and uses a 1.94# weight. It has a dial caliper that measures in 1/1000th of an inch increments.

Bisch

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©