3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Bare Shaft confusion...  (Read 875 times)

Offline A.S.

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3579
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 08:57:00 PM »
:archer:

Now we just have to get you on the 3D course with the entire Cool Springs Gang!

Offline VA Elite

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1028
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2015, 09:05:00 PM »
I hope I shoot better than this past weekend!
If you profess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved Romans 10:9

Online paradocs

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 450
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 09:54:00 PM »
It's all in his head, Allen....that, and a dropped elbow   :saywhat:   He's got potential...

Offline Jakeemt

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 858
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2015, 01:43:00 AM »
I start with a bare shaft and watch it on flight. I shoot at 25 yards. Once I am getting what appears to be good flight I switch to the bare shaft planning method and go from there.

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 10441
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2015, 08:23:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sticksnstones:
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent    HERE.  
Thom
That was a good film bro... thanks.

Offline dragonheart

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3593
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2015, 08:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kirkll:
 
Quote
Originally posted by sticksnstones:
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent    HERE.  
Thom
That was a good film bro... thanks. [/b]
YES and YES.  Watch this...
Longbows & Short Shots

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2015, 03:15:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sticksnstones:
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent    HERE.  
Thom
Bingo!    Ive never seen these videos until now.   Spot on!

Offline wtpops

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2015, 09:03:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VA Elite:
so can a 3d target work for nock right or left or is it too hard? I hear bag targets are too soft.
You are better off watching the arrow in flight and not once it impacts the target. Once you are close and you fine tune with fletch and bare the you look at arrow inpact.
TGMM Family of the Bow
"OVERTHINKING" The art of creating problems that weren't even there!

Offline Bldtrailer

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1055
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2015, 09:15:00 PM »
Here is a very simple way to tune
 http://tradgeeks.com/how-to-bare-shaft-tune-arrows/
As we get older our bow weight goes down and our body weight goes up, One of Lifes little jokes.
Bringing Archery to
 Wounded Warriors

Offline Sam McMichael

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 6873
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2015, 09:23:00 PM »
It seems to me that the condition of the target can affect how the shaft points upon impact. Either a soft or hard spot could affect it. Wouldn't careful observation of arrow flight give a better indication? This has always confused me.
Sam

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 10441
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2015, 09:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bldtrailer:
Here is a very simple way to tune
  http://tradgeeks.com/how-to-bare-shaft-tune-arrows/  
Good job on that video. I really like the fact you pointed out that changing your brace height to tune arrows should be saved as a last resort. Finding the sweet spot in the bows brace first is going to give you the quietest best shooting bow.

btw.... very nice shooting there too...

Offline BigJim

  • SPONSOR
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3287
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2015, 11:27:00 PM »
Yes, carbon arrows can have slight spine differences. I spent a bunch of time on the phone talking with an engineer last week discussing this very thing. According to AMO, the acceptable variance is +- .015.
 That means that If a shaft is rated to be .500 spine, it could be as weak as .515 and as stiff as .485 and still be within specs. This might sound like a bunch, but it is the equivalent to +- 1 1/2 lbs in a wood arrow. That would be an awfully good set of matched wood arrows.
Now don't forget, that just because a particular shaft is considered to be a .500, .600, or .400 doesn't mean that they are actually rated dead on at those numbers.

The engineer also informed me that of all the available spine testers on the market, they couldn't find a production one that was consistent enough to use for their testing so they had to design their own.

It amazes me that as inconsistent as a human can be, that they  always assume flight issues are due to inconsistent equipment.

Bare shafting is where it's at for tuning, but be careful of false readings. Shafts that are too stiff and hit the bow will usually show too weak.

with a nock point too low, or only one nock point for three under shooters could show all kinds of crazy things and especially inconsistency. Every little variance in style and release will cause that arrow to bounce off of the shelf in a different location and cause different reads.

This evening I shot a bare shaft at least 30 times...the same shaft from the same bow over and over. Most of the time it showed perfect or nearly perfect, but occasionally it showed stiff. Obviously a discrepancy in my form since it was the same arrow and bow each time.
Bigjim
http://www.bigjimsbowcompany.com/      
I just try to live my life in a way that would have made my father proud.

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 10441
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2015, 02:20:00 PM »
"It amazes me that as inconsistent as a human can be, that they always assume flight issues are due to inconsistent equipment."


Actually Jim it is due to those inconsistencies that an archer should do his best to get his arrows matched as close as possible....

For an example you've got a spine difference of .030 in your quiver, and you paid no attention to spine testing them from weak to strong side.... After spending a bit of time checking some of these different shafts, i've found some of them were as much as .020 difference from one side of the arrow to the next....

So now you have a spine range difference of .058 from one arrow to the next, and add in a slightly short draw, or come off the string rough. The different arrow spine, plus human error combination amplifies it.... instead of being 3" off you are missing the dad burn target completely.....

Offline jt85

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 993
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2015, 09:54:00 PM »
Can somebody explain to me why you should not can't your bow while bate shaft tuning? Wouldn't you want to tune the way you shoot?
Black Widow PCH 58" 48#@28"
Mohawk Sparrowhawk 62" 49@28
Mohawk Sparrowhawk 62" 52#@28
Wengerd Ibex 58" 50#@28

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2015, 01:45:00 AM »
So a few of these questions always come up when talking about bareshafting.

Can a target medium give false neg or false pos?  Sure they can.  If you read what the arrow is '
saying' after impact and its moved, you're getting potentially wrong readings.   I would venture to say 90% of us if not more can easily see when an arrow is off at impact (before it reacts to the target).  It creates more of an issue when you get into fine tuning at any form of distance.  The closer you get to perfect and the farther away you get, the more your vision comes into play.  

I like starting with soft targets with unknown setups (generally going off of someones spreadsheet forms of what spine it 'should' be)  if nothing else to keep blowing arrows up to a minimum.   You never know the shooter/bow requirements.  A burlap sack with shrink wrapped stuffed inside works well for this.   a used block style target works well as well though it is harder and will lead to breaks (cracks) if you're way out in spine. The newer the block, the more likely you'll break if your spine/form is way out.  

At distance, shooting a block style target to fine tune is a wise idea.  Or any other target that is not concrete cinders!

The irony in fine tuning a bare shaft is adding fletching can and sometimes does change tuning. (think dynamic spine here, weight at the tail end increases dynamic spine, as will adding paint)  this is where group testing comes in.  After all why waste a pile of money on shafts when you may be on the edge of a spine group.  Adding fletchings and a bh may be enough to bump you up a group, testing with unpainted shafts and shooting crown dipped/cresting could possibly bump you up two if you were close to begin with.  I'd rather find this out with test shafts vs spending 100 bucks on a dozen shafts....TWICE!  dip them all plain jane and run with it.  

Bareshafting is not an end all cure.  it does do a few things.  one it gets you close, generally very close!   Again adding fletchings bh's and paint (if you are bent on painting after the fact) can and likely will change things, though generally its a slight change (fine tuning), than something gross.  The more you rule out here, (paint) the less gross errors if any you'll come across.  

It also shows you IMMEDIATLY your faults as a shooter.  I laugh when people talk about inconsistencies.  Isn't this the very thing we're trying to work out?   Bowhunting is a game of consistencies, not inconsistencies.   I get similar results as Jim does....  Shooting a bunch of arrows or the same arrow I'll get similar results though at times one will go haywire, its me not the gear USUALLY!!!!  Its something I want to know is an issue and work on.   The greats (almost all) did this very thing in one form or another.  Why should we hold ourselves to a lesser standard?

Next I'll address canting vs straight up and down.   I tell people if you cant, shoot canted.   You'll need to adjust your + axis accordingly.   Even with my simple education, I can figure this out pretty quickly.  There's always someone who doesn't get it (or gets hung up on it for some reason).  I have them shoot vert, they generally get it rather quickly after that and move back to shooting 'normal' again whatever that may be.

Once you're tuned, as long as NOTHING changes, your arrow is going to fly straight as an arrow ( depending on to what enth degree you take this, some settle for much much less than this and call them or the bow tuned).   Laying on your back, belly etc etc.   Once things change (pressure, dl etc) dynamic spine requirements will shift.   Do you part, the equipment will do its job.   Look at Hill for a second.  he could reach into a crowd and shoot miss matched arrows into bulls...how?   Well it obviously wasn't because his gear was tuned to the enth degree with the miss matched arrows.  It was spot on perfect form!  Having the benefit of learning starting on the competition target side and using this lesson on game.   It was a natural progression for someone who made his living with a bow in hand.   Shooting 12dz arrows a day, over half alone was for form.   The results are history!  though we all may not achieve this level of accuracy, its entirely possible.  

The short answer is this.  by taking the time to follow some very simple steps, you do two very important things.

1....you tune your bow.  It seems simple enough.  yet its fluid,  If you change anything your dynamic spine MAY (or may not) change!  back to the tuning board.

2.... which is more important, you tune yourself!   By ruling out human errors keeping them consistent even if they're off you can make the needed corrections to be an accurate bowhunter/archer!  The more you work on it, in theory the better you should become.  basic understanding/teaching and effort along with natural abilities will be the limiting factors as to how well or poor you do in the end.  

Good luck and have fun with it!

Offline BigJim

  • SPONSOR
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3287
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2015, 06:35:00 AM »
I agree in having good equipment, but there is no way I will ever believe that an arrow that is off by 1-5 lbs will go from a 3" miss to missing a target unless we are talking extreme distances or 4" targets.

I have never spine checked my personal carbons but have checked wood arrows. I go through 7-10 dz carbon arrows a year as I will rarely spend more than a minute looking for an arrow and I love to shoot in thick areas so a break a bunch.

Every one of those arrows went where I was looking, but I might not have been looking at the right spot. Those things aren't changing unless they are damaged. They aren't going to fly good one time and then bad the next...unless the shooter is altering the load/ release program.

I love the thought though, can't get every arrow you shoot to hit the "10" ring every time? must need new arrows...hey ya'll, I sell new arrows. I have shot countless arrows from all the manufacturers that I sell and can't shoot the difference.
I watch guys shooting arrows grossly miss matched to there set up yet they claim they shoot like darts and to where they are looking.

I think that guys should tune the best they can then realize that when they miss with an arrow that normally flys well, that they should realize it wasn't the arrow..the bow..the target, but it was the archer.
Instead of wasting money on trying to "perfectly" match up a dz arrows, that money could be better spent seeking "professional" help. I mean shooting help yet some times, I think a psychiatrist is necessary especially for me.

BigJIm
http://www.bigjimsbowcompany.com/      
I just try to live my life in a way that would have made my father proud.

Offline DanielB89

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2824
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2015, 08:18:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by jt85:
Can somebody explain to me why you should not can't your bow while bate shaft tuning? Wouldn't you want to tune the way you shoot?
**ROOKIE HERE, so take it for what its worth**

When you cant the bow you could get a nock high reading when in fact it was a weak reading.  In theory, you could tune the arrow with the bow canted, you would just have to remember that the results wouldn't be the exact same.    

If your arrow is flying like a dart with a perfectly vertical bow, it will also fly like a dart with a perfectly horizontal bow.
"Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD. Jeremiah 17:7

"There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death."  Proverbs 14:12

Offline AkDan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Bare Shaft confusion...
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2015, 07:28:00 AM »
simple Daniel, adjust the axis....12 oclock is the same as your cant is...  Once your tuned it wont matter what cant you have.  It may however effect your impact (different degrees of cant)

Something Byron as mentions in his book is setting the cant.  Worth the read!   Along with his tuning and fine tuning info.  

In theory if you changed nothing but the cant you shouldn't change any tuning to any great degree....at least nothing you shouldn't be able to get out with a simple brace height adj.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©