having trouble paper tuning my 50# montana

[Pryor]

Hi guys, I'm brand new to this forum, and traditional archery.  I've been shooting compounds for 5 or 6 years, and am excited to start going primitive.  I bought a 50# Bear Montana long bow about 6 months ago, and have been having a blast shooting it.  Been trying to get consistent groups before I tried to really finish tuning my bow,and arrows.  I thought I was getting close, but my paper tuning has become frustrating.
  I bought some Easton Legacy 2018's that were cut at 30".  to my eye they seam to be fish tailing, So I started paper tuning, and get a consistent nock left, and high tear.  I tried to get a stiffer arrow by reducing point weight,  (145 all the way down  to 75) but the tears have more or less stayed the same.  I have read threads saying that that arrow should be close. Now I am not sure that its not my form.  The arrows say 55-60# long bow on them.  
  I am trying not to buy new arrows, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
   Thanks

[Zradix]

Welcome to tradgang!        

Are you left or right handed?
What is your draw length measure from the string to the deepest part of the grip?
How far from the paper are you..should be about 5-6 foot.
How far left and high are the tears?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You may try shimming your strike plate out and keeping your 145 points.

What is your actual draw length? 2018's on a 50 pound bow should be plenty stiff enough unless the riser is cut past center.

You need to check for clearance issues too. Put some lip stick on the back of your shelf & the back of the strike side of the riser. If you have clearance issues you may need to brace the bow a little higher and play with your string nock location...... There is a bit more to tuning arrows to a stick bow than you think.  Start with tuning the bow.... then tune your arrows.

[Zradix]

hey Kirk..
That sled worked out real nice!

[Pryor]

I am a right handed shooter, I had measured my Draw length by nocking an arrow, drawing it and having my wife mark the arrow at the back of the bow (side away from shooter).  That was 29 1/2 ".  My brace height has been set at about 7 3/4 ".  That seamed to me to be the "sweet spot" I am shooting at about 6' through paper.  The tears are about 4" with 125, gr. and about the same with the 145's.  with the 75grn points I got shorter tears but not consistently.  I lowered my nocking point, and got rid of most of the nock high issues. Kirkll, when I put lip stick on my bow am I looking for contact on bow, or arrow.  thanks alot guys.  turkey season is right arround the corner, and I really want to kill one with this bow.

[Pryor]

I forgot to ask.  How do I go about shimming the strike plate?.  Thanks again.

[Zradix]

Sounds like you're doing things right so far  

I'm assuming your arrows are in fact fletched as you said you're having a great time shooting.

Kirk was getting at the possibility of the rearish part of your arrows hitting the shelf or strike plate and "bouncing" out to the left causing the bad tears.

[Mr. fingers]

Before shimming try this If your shooting cock feather out try cock feather in toward the riser.
That worked for me.

[the rifleman]

All good suggestions above.  I have yet to master paper tuning traditional equipment.  A well known bowyer explained to me that the reason I would see tears one way at 6 feet and another at 9 feet was that the arrow was still going through paradox--an "expert" on another site denies the existence of paradox, but I noticed he lives in  world where low poundage bows always give blow throughs when shoulder bones are hit...
I do find bare shaft tuning to give me good results and once I have them flying right without feathers I don't get kicks or erratic flight with big broadheads.  I am sure that papertuning has its merits if properly done, but I have not yet learned how to use this tool to the maximum benefit.  Mr. fingers comment about the cock feather in was something that worked for me and as I understand it can compensate to some extent for an arrow that is just slightly out of tune and/or maybe release issues.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Mr. fingers:
Before shimming try this If your shooting cock feather out try cock feather in toward the riser.
That worked for me.

Definately try this... Zradix nailed it. Some times the arrow will kick off the riser and give you a false spine reading. using the lipstick on the riser will tell you if you are making contact and where. sometimes arrow nock rotation will get your clearance.....  

This is kind of strange though.... A 2018 has a pretty hefty spine rating and should be fine for 50 pounds. Try shimming out your strike plate with a piece of velcro or two pieces and see if she starts coming out of it....

Is that bow cut past center?

[AZ_Longbow]

Be sure your shooting the bow vertical, no cant at all. then shoot a series of shots try wrist position and such to be sure you are not torqueing the bow or plucking the string. those can play havoc with the initial flight.
I tend to bareshaft rather than paper tune so I hope that helps.

[Pryor]

Ok, I started by changing my brace height from 7.75" to 7.5, I then shot through paper, and tried my best to tell when it had the least shock up to 8.25".  the tears changed in nock high but not in nock left.  The next thing I did was tape some card board to the strike plate and shoot again.  tears were noticeably shorter, so I added one more piece of card board and shot again.  Now the tears where only about 1". When I got home I read about changing cock vane direction and  tried that.  It did not change the initial tear significantly, so I shimmed it out again and tried cock vain in.  the cock vane in has the same sized tear as not when shimmed, but shows nock high and left.  So my next step is to put lip stick on the back of riser and strike plate and see if I have contact. ( I probably should have done this first) I don't have any bare shafts and would hate to cut fletchings off, but I would if that would be a good Idea. Thanks for all the advice, It feels like I am figuring sum stuff out.

[Zradix]

how hard is it for you to be holding that bow at draw?
..and just to check...you are using your fingers on the string right?

...hey man..I started out with a recurve and using a release aid..so really just askin.

[Krex1010]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
 

Originally posted by Mr. fingers:
Before shimming try this If your shooting cock feather out try cock feather in toward the riser.
That worked for me.

Definately try this... Zradix nailed it. Some times the arrow will kick off the riser and give you a false spine reading. using the lipstick on the riser will tell you if you are making contact and where. sometimes arrow nock rotation will get your clearance.....  

This is kind of strange though.... A 2018 has a pretty hefty spine rating and should be fine for 50 pounds. Try shimming out your strike plate with a piece of velcro or two pieces and see if she starts coming out of it....

Is that bow cut past center? [/b]

The montanas are not cut past center

[Mr. fingers]

Try a bare shaft through paper no fletching.

[Pryor]

I am shooting with my fingers, 3 under.  I don't think It is to hard to hold it back , seams like I can hold it about ten or so seconds before I notice trembling. My shooting has never been real great, but at 10 yards I can usually keep it in about a 4" group. I'm sure I am drawing past 28", but I doubt that I am pulling over 54 pounds.  I probably added close to a quarter inch to the strike plate.  Kind of weird.  I am going to do some more experimenting tomarro. Thanks I am willing to try anything. Maby heavier arrows?

[Austin Brown]

I don't think you need heavier or stiffer arrows, personally I think 2016 would tune better despite what you are seeing now.  I don't have any long enough for you or I would send you one to try.

[njloco]

2016's or 1535 or 3555's Gold Tips, if you want to go carbon.
Make sure your shooting level at the paper.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey bro... if you went from a 6" left tare in your paper to a 1" tare shimming out your strike plate, that tells you right there that your spine is too weak as it is with your existing strike location....

What you need to do now is shim your strike plate out to where the cardboard brought your arrow strike and get back and shoot at 20-25 yards and watch your arrow flight..... of course check for clearance issues first using the lip stick.

The recommendations above to drop to a 2016 or a  or 3555 would just make matters worse. those are weaker spine than your 2018 shafts.....A 1535 is a 600 spine and will fold up like a noodle on you.

 Do you have any 400 spine shafts or 5575's you could run through her?..... As weird as it sounds, I believe your arrows  need to be stiffer than what you have going......especially if you are shooting 54 pounds or more at over 28" draw.

[58WINTERS]

You said "vains" in your post . Are you shooting vanes or feathers? Vanes off the shelf not a good idea. If so they are bouncing off the riser unless you are shooting an elevated rest.
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