Question for Bowyers

[Basinboy]

As a Bowyer would you return a deposit if you haven't started on the customers bow yet or invested anything to start his bow?

[JamesV]

I think any respectable bowyer would, I certainly would.

James

I'm not a bowyer, but I would, unless I had already purchased materials that were specific to that bow.

If I was the customer, and the bowyer said no refund, I would not be very upset either. I did initiate the deal and tell the bowyer I wanted him to build me a bow, and give him a deposit to prove my good intentions. And I would be the one backing out of that deal!

Bisch

[jess stuart]

I think that would be the only right thing to do.

[Sixby]

No because I do not take deposits unless I have a place to start the bow. I tell the buyer upfront that it is non refundable. However I guarantee a bow by a certain date or money back. The day I get the downpayment I start that bow. I am sure a lot of bowyers cannot do this and have to work in a different way but I at least know I am not going to get behind or leave people without a bow and without their money.

God bless, Steve

[overbo]

I feel Steve's policy is fair. It weeds out the true consumer from the tire kickers.

[BigJim]

I take a small deposit to put a customers name on the waiting list. My list is currently about eight months out. If they choose to cancel, we refund everything except a very small amount as often we can't recover the fees Or they can take a 100% credit in our store.
With out deposits I would have to raise my waiting list to a year or more.

I have found with the "waiting list" for Bear bows (we require only $25 deposit for this) that over half of the customers on the list waiting, cancel when the bow comes in.

BigJim

[Steve O]

Deposits are to protect the consumer AND the merchant. You are both making a COMMITMENT. honor your commitments people. Seems these days everyone wants things only to work one way; their way. I've had things come up and have lost deposits on a few things. That's life. I don't expect others running a business to make me a charity. Bowyers, arrow makers, outfitters; really anyone selling to traditional archers are not Fortune 500 companies that can absorb people taking advantage of them; deposits are one way to minimize this very prevalent risk.

[Sam McMichael]

I would, unless I had a stipulated no refund policy given to the customer before accepting the money.

[The Whittler]

Just my thoughts. If I put down 100$ or 200$ deposit for a bow that will take 6 to 8 months to even start the bow and 2 months later I have to pull out of the deal for what ever reason.

If the bowyer has not even started to get my bow ready then I don't see how that is hurting his business. Now if he has started getting my bow together then I feel him keeping my deposit is justifiably his.

[KentuckyTJ]

Whittler,

I know some bowyers, and at the time the deposit has been sent in the bowyer has spent a lot of time over sometimes many years talking to an individual on the phone and at show's about every aspect of the individuals bow. I think that a bowyer has earned that deposit at the time a customer agrees to be on the waiting list.

Talking keeps bowyers from making bows.

[JDBerry]

Kentucky TJ and Steve O, Xs 2.

 For the people who might want the depost back if they change there mind; Just tell the Bowyer, you are no going to send in a depost, BECAUSE you might change your mind, (and see how that works for you)  ..OE

[Bladepeek]

I think that is one aspect of the deal that should be discussed before the order - prevents a lot of hard feelings later on.

If I'm making a knife for someone, I almost never take a deposit unless the design is something that I might have difficulty in selling to someone else, or the cost of the materials requested would drive the price higher than I could easily get from another customer. If I did take a deposit, it would be for one of the above 2 reasons and then I would refund only that part of the deposit I recovered in the sale of the knife to someone else - after the knife sells.

Let's face it. A deposit is there for a reason. If a bowyer agrees to make a bow and has placed you on the waiting list, it's pushing other people down the list who might not want to wait that long. Could cost the bowyer some prospective customers. A lot depends on the amount of the deposit too. If you are paying 1/2 the p0rice of the bow up front and there has been no outlay of cash for materials on the part of the bowyer, a partial refund would seem to be in order. If the amount is just a "place keeper", than I would not ask to have it refunded.

Everyone has his own opinion on this and is why it should certainly be explained up front.

[wingnut]

The deposit is a contract between the bowyer and the customer.  If stipulated not-refundable it's just that.

If you are going to change your mind don't enter into the contract in the first place.

Mike

[nineworlds9]

Originally posted by wingnut:
The deposit is a contract between the bowyer and the customer.  If stipulated not-refundable it's just that.

If you are going to change your mind don't enter into the contract in the first place.

Mike

I think Mike sums it up pretty good.  His words reflect what makes the most logical sense.  

Anyway, various bowyers have various policies.  

I'm not gonna lie though, I love flexibility.  I personally like the idea of a lower $100-200 deposit that covers most of the materials for the bow, a little order discussion, and a spot in line.  Asking for a non-refundable deposit that is much more than that doesn't sit well with me if I'm not allowed to do things like sell my spot (something a bowyer like Jim Neaves allows) if extenuating circumstances occur.  

I think my opinion is based on things like wait time, ability to deliver on time, ability to deliver a product with no workmanship issues, and a bow that is exactly what I ordered in the first place.  

This is one reason I'm very picky with which bowyers I will do business with and I won't order a new bow without first trying one or several of that makers products used.  

Some examples of policies I favor as a customer are those of Brandon Stahl at Rose Oak, Jim Neaves at Centaur, and Steve at Northern Mist to name a few.  Brandon requires $0 deposit and there is a no-fault cancellation policy, his wait is around 6 months...the controls he has in place are that you cannot transfer your spot, and if you cancel you get bumped to the bottom of the list if you re-order, but to put that in perspective if you do get a bow it will be flawless, on-time and exactly how you ordered it.  Jim requires $300 up front and his wait is around 1 year, but you can sell your spot if you make the proper arrangements, and again if you do get the bow built it is among the best quality available, as ordered and delivered on time.  Steve's practice is similar to Brandon's and his wait time is also around 6 months.  All good stuff.  I think Big Jim does it right also, his deposit is more than reasonable, his wait has varied from 8 months to 1 year from my observations, and he has the benefit of having a huge stock of materials.  

Knowing that the reality out there might full well be different, idealist that I often am, I don't really "like" the idea that a bowyer might be taking $200 or $300 up front and making a living off deposits, i.e. using it to fund their enterprise, or 'day job' life, and then asking the customer to wait in excess of 3-6 months to produce a product which takes a week or two at most to build.  In my ideal world they would be using it to purchase the materials for the order (whether not on hand or 'purchased' from in-house stock) or to some degree setting the money aside in escrow, or hell they should at least be 100% positive they're good for it later if their business doesn't do well, we've all read stories of the occasional bowyer taking deposits, then their business goes under or they have to stop and suddenly "whoops sorry I can't refund all these deposits."  This is why I have generally chosen to only get new bows from bowyers who have relatively short wait times unless the bows they make are absolutely top of heap quality and performance wise and they are well established in the community, in which case I can handle that their product is in demand and will wait patiently to have the best of the best.

[fnshtr]

I just got on a bowyer's "list". He usually does not require a deposit, but I suggested that I send a $200 deposit and he agreed.

The way I look at it is like this. I wanted him to know I am a serious buyer... as others have said, not just a "tire kicker". The deposit will be applied to the price of the bow when finished.

I agree that wingnut summed it up well.

[JamesV]

I am not a sponsor here and don't derive my living from building bows. I do sell a few bows along as many hobby shop builders do. I do not require a deposit,  therefore  I cannot speak for the professional bow builders that do require a deposit and make their living from building bows. I can honestly say this: If I do build you a bow and you are not happy for ANY reason and do not love the bow, just send it back for a full refund, as I would rather have the bow back than you be unhappy.

That is my take on this subject.

James

[Toby @ Black Widow]

We have had guys cancel even after the bow was painted and gave them a full refund.
Not a fun thing to do but just the way we've always done it.

[V I Archer]

I would have no argument against a bowyer retaining a reasonable deposit even if they had not yet ordered, cut or glued material. Taking an order, exchanging calls and emails to spec a potential bow out, etc.  t's all their time, they deserve to not have their time wasted.