Fletched Arrow vs Bare Shaft In Flight?

[rwbowman]

I recently acquired a new Holzrichter Custom longbow, fresh out of John's shop. It's a right handed 60", 47# @ 28", that I draw to 26 1/2" and is cut slightly past center. I'm shooting GT Traditional 55/75 (400 spine). When I bare shaft tuned, I was able to get the bare shaft impacting a bag target straight (left and right) and it flies the same out to 20 yards. I'm not sure of the exact length I ended up with, but I'm using 100 grain brass inserts and 145 grain field points.

I followed the cut length on the fletched shafts, with cap wraps installed. Upon shooting the wrapped and fletched shafts, I notice a kick (point left, nock right) in flight, indicating a stiff arrow. I figured the wrap to be the culprit, so I installed a wrap on the bare shaft to compare. Strangely, the bare shaft shoots straight, but sometimes actually shows weak now (point right, nock left).

While my arrows are hitting well when I do not let my form slip, the occasional difference in flight bothers me. I've played with my brace height to try to tweak the initial flex point of the arrow as it leaves the bow and at best, most of my shots look rather clean. I also tuned the nocks to adjust the orientation of the fletching to eliminate riser contact, but I still see the occasional odd flight. I've been shooting longbows for three years and have never had an arrow/bow combo stump me like this.

An additional issue I'm having is that both fletched and bare shaft show nock high, no matter where I move my nock points. I shoot 3 under and tie in a double nock point.

Any thoughts?

[kevsuperg]

I would think those shafts would be quite stiff. I guess you're around 44-45# DW.
 I shoot 5575 29" with 285 up front from my grizzly 50#@28 with a FF string.
 If you like those arrows I would go up in point weight and see what happens

[damascusdave]

You are being too picky...those arrows are fine...spend your thinking and your doing on getting rid of those form issues

DDave

[Orion]

I tend to agree with Dave, though I also think those shafts are on the heavy side, particularly if you cut them down some.

[DanielB89]

I will have to disagree, I only ever bare shaft.  I think a bare shaft is by far the best way to show those form flaws as we as the arrows flaws.  

I like to leave my arrows slightly weak, like
BARELY.  I don't pay attention to how the arrow hits the target, but I do focus on whether it hits left(stiff) or right(weak).  I also pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to how the arrow flies in the air.  This can be very challenging, but I have found that even with a bareshaft, it will correct itself some in flight.  I am looking for the initial reaction off the bow.  

Another reason I always tune my arrows slightly weak is because of the likely hood of a short draw in a hunting scenario.  In the heat of summer bare tuning with shorts and a sleeveless shirt on, its easy to be sure you hit full draw, but throw in some 30* weather and a few layers of clothes and you will easily short draw! So, although it may sound bad, I tune for the most forgiving arrow possible.  Which is  good when I do everything right and still good when I short draw a little.

[rwbowman]

I am having a hard time in thinking they are too stiff: My other Holzrichter is 62", 50# @ 28" and I shoot the same arrow from it. It's cut shy of center and the arrows are a bit longer. When I shoot the longer arrows from the new bow, they show up extremely weak (flying nock left and impacting the target far right).

[rwbowman]

"Another reason I always tune my arrows slightly weak is because of the likely hood of a short draw in a hunting scenario. In the heat of summer bare tuning with shorts and a sleeveless shirt on, its easy to be sure you hit full draw, but throw in some 30* weather and a few layers of clothes and you will easily short draw! So, although it may sound bad, I tune for the most forgiving arrow possible. Which is good when I do everything right and still good when I short draw a little."

My preference as well. I would much rather have an arrow a little weak than a little stiff and this is how I typically finish.

[kevsuperg]

Well then if that's the case I'll agree with DD.

[ranger 3]

I hate to differ with DanielB89, but if a bare shaft is hitting right it is light spine, hitting left is stiff.

[Dale in Pa]

More and more I'm finding that you can get a stiff shaft to bareshaft well, but put feathers on and it will really shoot stiff. I think you should try heavier points or try those longer arrows for your other bow with BHs. How they're flying with BHs is the only thing that matters.

[BAK]

I'm shooting 15/35's out of six different bows on the 47 50 pound range.  Can't imagine shooting shafts that stiff out of that set up.

[the rifleman]

I agree with BAK---in my experience the GTs in 1535 have given great results in my bows ranging from 40 to 50 pounds with between 145 and 200 grs up front.  Not sure why your bow is bareshafting them near perfect and changing so dramatically when fletched.  That being said I know that different bows with different center cuts shoot differently and nothing is unheard of which is why we tune--to let the bow tell us what it wants.  No harm in trying a weaker shaft or adding point weight to what you have...  Best of luck.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by ranger 3:
I hate to differ with DanielB89, but if a bare shaft is hitting right it is light spine, hitting left is stiff.

I definitely typed that wrong.  Thank you for catching it.

[9 Shocks]

I'd shoot .600 spine if I were you.

[BigJim]

Shafts are too stifffffffff ...read again.

A big problem in tuning is knowing a false reading from a true reading.

Understand, other than grouping right, or grouping left, fletched arrows won't give you reliable info to work from.

When bare shafting assuming RH shooter, an arrow nock kicking to the right we know to be too stiff...that's easy, but here is where people can get seriously confused - an arrow nock kicking to the Left can be either too weak, or too stiff.

I know that this sounds strange, but it is very true. imagine the shaft propelling forward and kicking to the right....oops, rather than clearing the riser and maintaining a nock right, it hits the sight window and kicks out to the left giving the appearance of being weak. A bare shaft has no way to correct itself so it will stay left after bouncing off the bow.

Here are some clues to a false reading:

You need to shoot a spine that is considerably too stiff. No, you ain't special.

wear on shelf material. The arrow should not touch the shelf or bow on the way forward.

Excessive noise caused  by arrow bouncing off the bow...usually sounds like a click.

feather wear after fletching. well tuned arrows shouldn't experience feather wear from hitting bow.

Inconsistency in arrow flight is almost always due to inconsistency of the shooter. This shows up even more when the arrows aren't tuned properly as they will bounce off the bow from different angles  with each change in form. Think of it as being a bank shot.

Don't fall in to the group of guys that believes that point weight will correct everything. Yes, it will stiffen or weaken the shaft, but only small amounts and won't make up for using the wrong spine unless you are very close to the edge of one spine or the other.

Best of luck with this and if I can be of any help, feel free to contact me.
BigJim

[MnFn]

Pay attention to Big Jims advice. That was almost exactly my experience. I could go up to 75/80 (woodies of course) out of my Blacktail recurve and get indications of weak spine. Heavier spine SEEMED to work better.  It was poor technique/form on my part.

When I finally figured it out with help from others, I ended up shooting slightly under 65# spruce arrows. That is what I used to take my bear this spring. It shot completely through the bear.

Just a side note:  a comment I heard from the guides was a lot of guys show up at bear camp shooting arrows too stiff.

[rwbowman]

I went to the indoor range last night. I also measured my arrows. They are 30 1/4".

I found that my nock point was in fact extremely high and ended up a hair over 1/8". This seemed to have corrected the nasty flight I was seeing and my arrows started to look like what I'm used to seeing.

I'm using the pile side of vecro on the rest and am showing virtually no rest wear. There is no excessive noise of the arrows coming out of the bow (I'm a nut for a quiet, well tuned setup). I think what was happening was with the nock point as high as it was, the arrows were simply trying to recover in flight, and any flaw in my form was amplifying the issue.
I went ahead and shot a 300 round and shot a 250. She's lined up and ready to go now!
Thanks for all of the advice.

[BigJim]

If I read that correctly, your nock height is now 1/8" above center?

I went back and re read your messages and responses. I noticed that you didn't mention if you shot three fingers under or split finger.

This is very important providing your arrow nocks properly fit the string (they should barely hang on to the string and be able to slide up and down on serving).

With a three under shooting style, you should find it necessary to have a second nock point up under your arrow as well as one above. You should also find it necessary to have the upper nock point approximately 5/8" ++ above center.

With a split finger release, nock height of 7/16" or higher is typical.

If you are at 1/8" above center, the arrow should actually be pointing up coming off the shelf as the arrow nock is actually thicker than 1/8".

When I mentioned possible signs of over spine, that doesn't mean that they will always show up but that they are obvious signs if you are experiencing them.
Common mistake is that we can actually shoot an arrow and have full comprehension from sight how well it is flying.

These are merely suggestions trying to help. If your happy with where your at now, let fly.

BigJim

[rwbowman]

Thanks Big Jim. Yes, that is correct on the nock height.
I am often badgered about how loosely my nocks fit my strings (as I watch others try to figure out why their bows seem loud, or why each arrow they shoot seems to have a personality of it's own).
I do shoot three under and tie in a double nock point on my strings as well, as when I first changed to three under I couldn't figure out why my arrows were wagging up and down in flight. A little research lead me to tying in double nock sets.

I agree the arrows may be a bit on the stiff side, but they're definitely flying better than they were before.

I greatly appreciate the tips!

Rory

[Producer]

I beleive big Jim is right on, too heavy. 47Lb bow, 500 arrow straight up. Take a 400 and cut inches off of it and you are way to stiff. You are too stiff to make up with up front weight because you were over shaft to start and you cut them. I have made the same mistake not realizing how stiff carbons get when you cut them down. Cut a 32" carbon down to 28" and it is like rebar.