Endless vs Flemish for Traditional Bows

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Lee Dogman:
Rob,

A 10 strand endless has 10 strands in the loops.

nope. a 10 strand endless string has 5 strands in one loop and 6 strands in the connecting loop.

A 10 strand flemish has 20 strands in the loops.

When the number of strands in the string are equal, a flemish has at least twice as many strands in the loops and is therefore stronger than an endless string.  In some cases a flemish has even more than double the count should "slices" are added in.

nope.  physics tests have proven that given the same number of main body strands, of the same fiber, in an endless and a flemish string, they both break at the same tensile strength.

When I make a flemish dynaflight of 9 or 12 strands, the loops have splices added to them to bring up the loop count to 30 strands. A flemish 30 strand loops is CERTAINLY stronger than a 9 or 12 strand endless.

nope, not at all so.  do some physical tests - i did because i was skeptical.  

also, yer also talking about padding a flemish - endless can, and should, also be padded!  i use 8 strand dyneema'02 endless strings for my 55# longbow, each loop is padded with 6 strands and served with soft #4 nylon.
 
Again, I am talking about when two strings are made properly.

now i can give a 'yep!'.  

[Lee Robinson .]

A correction in my post is indeed needed.

The flemish has not twice as many as an endless, but twice as many as the BODY. Meaning a flemish 10 strand string would have 20 strand loops.

While an endless has not half as many as the flemish, but half as many as the BODY. Meaning a 10 strand endless string would only have 5 strand loops.

This only further illustrates why I found what I found.

The endless failed quicker in weight drop tests.

I never padded the loops on an endless string by adding strands to the loops. I padded the loops of an endless string by just serving the loops twice. There is a reason this industry standard for endless strings. I have never met a maker that padded the loops of endless strings by adding strands to the loops. Every endless string maker I have met padded endless strings simply with extra serving material. It would be difficult to add padding string to the loops on an endless string with extra strands in the body because when you SERVE over "added strands" the strands don't want to lay into the body. Splices under a serving want to follow the serving tool as you serve it and have to be added WITHIN the body strands and then the body twisted to keep them there while serving over them to prevent them from following the serving tool as you wrap over them. Since loops are served in a string with no twists to hold such splices in place, I followed industry standards and simply double served them as that was "industry standard." Even if someone could serve over such padding, it wouldn't do much as it isn't "tied into the weight bearing load" as padding a flemish does since such padding is NOT held in by the weight bearing body strands, but just "served into" place. I know when a serving is added, I can use my own arm strength (without impact) to pull a strand through about 20 wrapps of serving as when we tie the end of our servings. I believe in time that even if padding was added in the loops for 6" down it would still pull out given time and impact of shooting repeatedly.

The flemish is stonger not because it has twice as many as an endless...but because actually FOUR TIMES as many strands in the loops.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Lee Dogman:
A correction in my post is indeed needed.

The flemish has not twice as many as an endless, but twice as many as the BODY. Meaning a flemish 10 strand string would have 20 strand loops.

While an endless has not half as many as the flemish, but half as many as the BODY. Meaning a 10 strand endless string would only have 5 strand loops.

This only further illustrates why I found what I found.

The endless failed quicker in weight drop tests.

I never padded the loops on an endless string by adding strands to the loops. I padded the loops of an endless string by just serving the loops twice. There is a reason this industry standard for endless strings. I have never met a maker that padded the loops of endless strings by adding strands to the loops. Every endless string maker I have met padded endless strings simply with extra serving material. It would be difficult to add padding string to the loops on an endless string with extra strands in the body because when you SERVE over "added strands" the strands don't want to lay into the body. Splices under a serving want to follow the serving tool as you serve it and have to be added WITHIN the body strands and then the body twisted to keep them there while serving over them to prevent them from following the serving tool as you wrap over them. Since loops are served in a string with no twists to hold such splices in place, I followed industry standards and simply double served them as that was "industry standard." Even if someone could serve over such padding, it wouldn't do much as it isn't "tied into the weight bearing load" as padding a flemish does since such padding is NOT held in by the weight bearing body strands, but just "served into" place. I know when a serving is added, I can use my own arm strength (without impact) to pull a strand through about 20 wrapps of serving as when we tie the end of our servings. I believe in time that even if padding was added in the loops for 6" down it would still pull out given time and impact of shooting repeatedly.

The flemish is stonger not because it has twice as many as an endless...but because actually FOUR TIMES as many strands in the loops.

respectfully, yer way wrong on the strength matter comparison.

in my vid on spinning a skinny endless string, i pad the loops before serving. double loop serving is a thing of the long past, dunno of anyone bothering to do that for a number of good reasons.  loop padding is the better way to to.  check out my  vid

[Lee Robinson .]

Rob,

I will check out the video, but as I stated, I did a "drop weight" test and the endless broke in the loops using the "industry standard" type endless strings...which stands to reason since such strings had a lower strand count in the loops.

P.S. My "bold" text wasn't intended to be "yelling" but just emphasis on the main points. I hope it didn't come off rude. I was just trying to express the main ideas for those that choose to skim read.

[Lee Robinson .]

OOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mult-tasking doesn't work when the wife and kids are talking to me. I need to stick to doing one thing at a time. I went back and read what I wrote and LOL...I too see several things wrong with what I wrote. My apologies for that.

A 10 string flemish has the same number of strands in the loops, but twice as much in the flemish (tie off). My bad. Doing too many things at once. I wasn't thinking. Still though, the flemish has twice as many strands in the loops as does an endless...and that the fact that I based my opinion on...and it was that fact that I recall explaining my observations in the "weight drop tests" I did some decade or so ago when comparing flemish to endless strings.

Again, my apologies for that error!

Rob, I watched your video, and you certainly make just as good an endless bowstring as anyone and better than most doing it the way you do.

The problem that I see though is you still only have 4 "full" load bearing strands in the bottom loop, as the "padding strands" are only held into position with a serving and are not load bearing strands. They are just padding strands. That said, I am sure they do increase the loop strength to some degree when compared to a non-padded endless (which is what I tested), but still just as your "whip" that you used to pull the tie off end of the serving back through when completing your serving...one can see that string can slip under the serving and move. Therefore, the padding loops although they may increase loop strength to some degree they certainly aren't likely to have "full" load bearing capabilities as would the main body 4 strands that make up the 8 strand string. All the weight of your bow is still on the load bearing strands...in other words, the 4 strands on the bottom loop is your "weak link."

The way a flemish is tied off, the greater the tension on the string, the harder and tighter the flemish is held together as the load further "locks" the flemish loops together. So again, I don't see the endless type having the same load strength as a flemish string. I am willing to test a padded endless string against an equal count flemish to see if you wish (only for the benefit of knowledge). I have nothing to gain or lose from such a test. The test I would recommend again would be a "wait drop test" to mimic the impact of a heavy weight bow being shot, as I wouldn't want to use a real bow since non-of us want to see a bow fail under dry firing or something.

In end, I think I (or someone else) would get the same results I obtained before when using a non-padded endless because...

Going back to a "10 strand string" instead of an 8 strand string...

1. A 10 strand flemish string has the full strength of 10 load bearing strands in the body and in the loops. The "padding isn't load bearing" and is just "padding."

2. A 10 strand endless has the full strength of only 5 load bearing strands in the loops as "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." Again, the padding isn't load bearing. As I mentioned above, I do believe the padding will help to some degree, but the padding that is added to an endless string isn't likely to carry as much load as are the primary load bearing strands that run through the body of the string since they are only held in by a serving and aren't really bearing the load of the draw. In the endless, this padding is just that...padding.

Five strands just can't hold the load that 10 strands can hold. This again would explain why endless strings tend to break the loops, while flemish strings tend to fail in the body. The only exception I have seen to this is when someone had a sharp string groove that cut the loops...and I think both of us would agree that you can't blame a string for being cut by a sharp corner of glass on a bow that needed to be filed smoother, as that would cut any type of string.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

If either bowstring breaks due to stress, it wasn't made properly to begin with.

[Lee Robinson .]

Jason,

You have to consider how many people today are shooting "ultra light weight" strings...strings that people just 10 years ago would not have even considered shooting.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Lee,

Yes, which goes back to exactly what I posted.

[Lee Robinson .]

Agreed.